Thanks for having the courage to bring up the vegan topic. Because I just don't go there. I'm vegetarian. I don't do dairy. I agree with you but I don't want to argue with anybody. So I focus on getting rid of the consumer economy and degrowth. But thank you for putting your voice out there.
Thanks for your kind words Debbie. I found my feet in activism many years ago because of the huge injustice we are committing against animals by having such meat, dairy and egg heavy diets. But it was difficult to keep speaking up for them because seeing people who openly love their dog be so indifferent/hostile towards being kinder to non-dog animals was too much. People can be very protective of their diet! But I’ve recently re-immersed myself in the literature on the benefits of a WFPB diet, and it’s staggering, I just couldn’t not speak up!
I agree that people are so protective of their diet. You think it's like their religion. Don't dare take their meat away. There's the health issue. There's the being kind to the animal. I agree, totally be nice to your dog and cat, but who cares about the cow? I just saw post with a cow crying at a slauwaterhouse. And it's cheaper to eat this and then there's the environmental impact. It's it's so devicive and we're making some headway but not enough. I mean, I have cattle across the street for me and it takes a year and a 1/2 to grow that cow. Once it's born not to mention the incubation. And then you have to grow, you know, green to feed it in the in the in the in the winter. It's just insane how much land you need to grow a cow? And how much time it takes? I know I'm preaching to the choir.
You are obviously passionate in your beliefs and seemingly unwilling to consider alternatives.
Currently, vegan food is almost completely from the industrial food system. It depends on fossil-sunlight powered, mechanized agriculture and out-of-place annual plants. It is not sustainable.
Yet, I am in no way defending industrial meat production.
There is a space in-between these two extremes, but I have not met a vegan who was willing to listen.
I would have the utmost respect for a vegan farmer who supplied all their dietary needs. I have never met one. And being a farmer and a food activist, I meet *many* farmers!
The advent of agriculture is often cited as the beginning of humanity's slippery slope into overshoot and collapse. This would include *vegan* agriculture.
Between agriculture and hunting/gathering was pastoralism, still practised in some regions. It works to produce high-quality protein in the most sustainable manner possible. It strives to maintain animal health as long as possible, rather than putting on weight as quickly as possible. No B-12 needed. No balancing grain with beans to get the optimum mix of protein. It largely happens in terrain unsuitable for growing staple vegan crops in large quantities.
The ability to digest milk as an adult has spontaneously arisen in five different human populations, at five different times, at five different locations on the human genome. This proved to be an evolutionary advantage to those populations, helping them to grow beyond their original boundaries. Genghis Kahn conquered from the Pacific to the Baltic, largely because of his goat dairy!
Likewise, the evolution of brightly-coloured fur arose in dairy animals when being found by their symbiotic keepers was better for survival than hiding from predators.
These are genetic adaptations that appear to "want to be!"
Our goats led long, happy lives. They browsed in wooded areas and rocky terrain unsuitable for vegan food crops. We did this while being a net carbon sink. No, we didn't eat the boys, but we reluctantly sold them to people who did.
Everything on this planet survives at the expense of some other living organism. Veganism is a non-sustainable, virtue-signalling luxury enabled by fossil sunlight. Limited use of fowl and dairy animals to produce high-quality protein and fat during a long and happy life, on land unsuitable for growing grains and beans, may not feed the world, but it *will* feed the survivors.
I whole-heartedly agree that an industrial vegan diet is better than an industrial meat diet. But they are both fundamentally industrial processes, and are both unsustainable in the long run. Vegans who make the "kindness" argument have not witnessed the vultures following a combine through a soy field, feasting on the rodents, snakes, and bunnies chopped up by the machinery.
Yes, we need to deindustrialise the food system, but that was not the topic of today’s piece, because the first and greatest step we can take it to stop eating animal products.
I disagree with much of how Jan characterizes these issues. I won't go point by point, although it's tempting! For one though, re: ". . . seemingly unwilling to consider alternatives." Actually, I suspect Erin, like me, has considered all the alternatives and ended up with PBWF vegan being the best of the many alternatives. Not perfect, but preferable overall. I'm fortunate to live near an organic restaurant called Greenfare, which follows PBWF principles. I had gone from meat eater to ovolactopescatarian about 15 years ago and earlier this year to full PBWF. I;ve lost weight and blood panels much improved. And no diminished energy or other problems.
Thanks for sharing your experience Robert, it echoes that of many people. My husband is going to give The Healthy Habits Challenge a go in September and I hope he feels better because of it too. The science is overwhelmingly clear that we thrive when we eat a diet that we spent 90% of our evolution consuming - plants (in their whole form).
Erin, I love your work, but there's also an uncomfortable truth that being a sucker for punishment is a signal of leaving something out.
In our case one can point to various things, like that you're proposing we green the whole world before we study why the world's main problems are multiplying. So I think some much more focused targeting is needed.
No where have I proposed that we "green the whole world".
I know that you want the people in finance to understand that continually multiplying their profit is a terrible idea because it's killing the planet.
I think those same people in finance could understand that and still go home and eat a diet that is bad for them, the planet and harmful to animals, and we'd still be in trouble.
It is possible that there's more than one job to be done.
Thanks very much for your thoughts. Of course a world transformation takes many parts coming together to "green the whole world." We say "where there's a will there's a way," but that isn't exactly true for how our world system controls the people in it. That's part of what we need to study to find how to influence them. It's what my urgent plea is about, to get people going on finding the natural and social forces that block or enable people to take part in transformations.
I think it would be easier to convey in conversaation, how to find leverage or attractors for real change. I also quite agree that you don't change people with one poster or presentation. We also need to keep doing new things as old things fail. The hard work also needs to lead to somthing taking off, some system of making new connections for turning the worlds attention.
It's multiplying past successes and not looking ahead that became suicidal, right? The shape of real success is quite the opposite, learning to care for what can last. What seems hard to uderstand is that all systems of any kind go through series of tipping points and transformations to get anywhere.
Any new system has a lifecycle not unlike an organism's, that starts with a burst of self-organization that becomes unsustainable. The systems that survive it change their directions of development, to stop multiplying what worked before and care for that can last, for living systems its the way birth is the tipping point that triggers maturation. It's what sets the growth of living things apart, they can redesign to survive. You know the phrase "look lively"? I think that's what it refers to.
Thanks for having the courage to bring up the vegan topic. Because I just don't go there. I'm vegetarian. I don't do dairy. I agree with you but I don't want to argue with anybody. So I focus on getting rid of the consumer economy and degrowth. But thank you for putting your voice out there.
Thanks for your kind words Debbie. I found my feet in activism many years ago because of the huge injustice we are committing against animals by having such meat, dairy and egg heavy diets. But it was difficult to keep speaking up for them because seeing people who openly love their dog be so indifferent/hostile towards being kinder to non-dog animals was too much. People can be very protective of their diet! But I’ve recently re-immersed myself in the literature on the benefits of a WFPB diet, and it’s staggering, I just couldn’t not speak up!
I agree that people are so protective of their diet. You think it's like their religion. Don't dare take their meat away. There's the health issue. There's the being kind to the animal. I agree, totally be nice to your dog and cat, but who cares about the cow? I just saw post with a cow crying at a slauwaterhouse. And it's cheaper to eat this and then there's the environmental impact. It's it's so devicive and we're making some headway but not enough. I mean, I have cattle across the street for me and it takes a year and a 1/2 to grow that cow. Once it's born not to mention the incubation. And then you have to grow, you know, green to feed it in the in the in the in the winter. It's just insane how much land you need to grow a cow? And how much time it takes? I know I'm preaching to the choir.
I hate seeing the cows with tears in their eyes. They are such beautiful creatures. Calves are the sweetest, just like puppies but bigger.
Erin, I am sorry I was editing my reply and somehow it just got sent so it has some errors in it
So well stated
Thank you Steven, I appreciate your kind words!
You are obviously passionate in your beliefs and seemingly unwilling to consider alternatives.
Currently, vegan food is almost completely from the industrial food system. It depends on fossil-sunlight powered, mechanized agriculture and out-of-place annual plants. It is not sustainable.
Yet, I am in no way defending industrial meat production.
There is a space in-between these two extremes, but I have not met a vegan who was willing to listen.
I would have the utmost respect for a vegan farmer who supplied all their dietary needs. I have never met one. And being a farmer and a food activist, I meet *many* farmers!
The advent of agriculture is often cited as the beginning of humanity's slippery slope into overshoot and collapse. This would include *vegan* agriculture.
Between agriculture and hunting/gathering was pastoralism, still practised in some regions. It works to produce high-quality protein in the most sustainable manner possible. It strives to maintain animal health as long as possible, rather than putting on weight as quickly as possible. No B-12 needed. No balancing grain with beans to get the optimum mix of protein. It largely happens in terrain unsuitable for growing staple vegan crops in large quantities.
The ability to digest milk as an adult has spontaneously arisen in five different human populations, at five different times, at five different locations on the human genome. This proved to be an evolutionary advantage to those populations, helping them to grow beyond their original boundaries. Genghis Kahn conquered from the Pacific to the Baltic, largely because of his goat dairy!
Likewise, the evolution of brightly-coloured fur arose in dairy animals when being found by their symbiotic keepers was better for survival than hiding from predators.
These are genetic adaptations that appear to "want to be!"
Our goats led long, happy lives. They browsed in wooded areas and rocky terrain unsuitable for vegan food crops. We did this while being a net carbon sink. No, we didn't eat the boys, but we reluctantly sold them to people who did.
Everything on this planet survives at the expense of some other living organism. Veganism is a non-sustainable, virtue-signalling luxury enabled by fossil sunlight. Limited use of fowl and dairy animals to produce high-quality protein and fat during a long and happy life, on land unsuitable for growing grains and beans, may not feed the world, but it *will* feed the survivors.
I whole-heartedly agree that an industrial vegan diet is better than an industrial meat diet. But they are both fundamentally industrial processes, and are both unsustainable in the long run. Vegans who make the "kindness" argument have not witnessed the vultures following a combine through a soy field, feasting on the rodents, snakes, and bunnies chopped up by the machinery.
Good luck in the coming great simplification!
Yes, we need to deindustrialise the food system, but that was not the topic of today’s piece, because the first and greatest step we can take it to stop eating animal products.
I disagree with much of how Jan characterizes these issues. I won't go point by point, although it's tempting! For one though, re: ". . . seemingly unwilling to consider alternatives." Actually, I suspect Erin, like me, has considered all the alternatives and ended up with PBWF vegan being the best of the many alternatives. Not perfect, but preferable overall. I'm fortunate to live near an organic restaurant called Greenfare, which follows PBWF principles. I had gone from meat eater to ovolactopescatarian about 15 years ago and earlier this year to full PBWF. I;ve lost weight and blood panels much improved. And no diminished energy or other problems.
Thanks for sharing your experience Robert, it echoes that of many people. My husband is going to give The Healthy Habits Challenge a go in September and I hope he feels better because of it too. The science is overwhelmingly clear that we thrive when we eat a diet that we spent 90% of our evolution consuming - plants (in their whole form).
I am still in the process of completely transitioning away from animal products, and giving up meat was the easiest.
It took a while to understand that I shouldn't be looking for a replacement for meat, but rather I should look for food that's making me healthy.
Very informative, thank you🙏
Erin, I love your work, but there's also an uncomfortable truth that being a sucker for punishment is a signal of leaving something out.
In our case one can point to various things, like that you're proposing we green the whole world before we study why the world's main problems are multiplying. So I think some much more focused targeting is needed.
No where have I proposed that we "green the whole world".
I know that you want the people in finance to understand that continually multiplying their profit is a terrible idea because it's killing the planet.
I think those same people in finance could understand that and still go home and eat a diet that is bad for them, the planet and harmful to animals, and we'd still be in trouble.
It is possible that there's more than one job to be done.
Thanks very much for your thoughts. Of course a world transformation takes many parts coming together to "green the whole world." We say "where there's a will there's a way," but that isn't exactly true for how our world system controls the people in it. That's part of what we need to study to find how to influence them. It's what my urgent plea is about, to get people going on finding the natural and social forces that block or enable people to take part in transformations.
I think it would be easier to convey in conversaation, how to find leverage or attractors for real change. I also quite agree that you don't change people with one poster or presentation. We also need to keep doing new things as old things fail. The hard work also needs to lead to somthing taking off, some system of making new connections for turning the worlds attention.
It's multiplying past successes and not looking ahead that became suicidal, right? The shape of real success is quite the opposite, learning to care for what can last. What seems hard to uderstand is that all systems of any kind go through series of tipping points and transformations to get anywhere.
Any new system has a lifecycle not unlike an organism's, that starts with a burst of self-organization that becomes unsustainable. The systems that survive it change their directions of development, to stop multiplying what worked before and care for that can last, for living systems its the way birth is the tipping point that triggers maturation. It's what sets the growth of living things apart, they can redesign to survive. You know the phrase "look lively"? I think that's what it refers to.
Thanks for listening!
All the very best, Jessie